Bi Men in Swinging: Breaking Stigma with United Bi Swinging (Ashley & Rob)

0:06 Alright y'all, before we dive in, a quick heads up. This show is raw, real, and definitely not rated pg. We're talking about adult themes, sexual content, and the kind of stuff you probably don't want blasting through your speakers at work or around your kits. So grab some headphones, pour your drink of choice and get comfy. Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not licensed therapists, counselors, or sex. Couches. Sex coaches. Sex coaches, not sex couches or just a couple of people sharing our lives, experiences and sexy adventures.

0:47 An ethical non-monogamy. So with that, pull up a chair and enjoy the show. And. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Beyond Monogamy. I'm Adam. And I'm Pris. And tonight we're diving into a conversation that's real, raw and long overdue bi sexuality and the lifestyle. Our guests are doing something seriously special. We've got Ashley and Rob, the bi power couple behind the United bi Swinging Podcast and creators who are breaking barriers and busting myths, bisexuality in the swinging world. Yes. Their show is all about normalizing bisexuality, especially for men, but also highlighting what it looks like for both partners when couples explore that together.

1:31 I love that. Yeah. They're proof that you can build connection, trust, and freedom while owning your truth. No shame, no hiding and no apology. Yeah. So pull up a chair, take a deep breath and get comfy. This one's about to get honest. The curiosity's redefining what love and desire look like when you stop worrying about the boxes other people put you in. That's right. So we would like to welcome Ashley and Rob to the show. Welcome, welcome, Rob. Thank you. Thank you so much. That's great. Yeah. What an intro. Oh my. I'm grinding cry. Oh man. I swear he's good at that. I like to talk up my guests. You know, the guests are the focus of this show. I mean, we're all about community and you guys are all in this community and y'all are, y'all are all in.

2:13 Yeah. Uh, so. Just what we were talking about. You know, I, I noticed you guys from, uh, the podcast that y'all started up United bi swinging. Um, for people who have listened to past episodes, uh, they know that I have a very strong stance we both do on, um, you know, acceptance in the lifestyle. And if there was anything that I've learned is that there is a lot of judgment in the lifestyle from other people in the lifestyle. Yeah. And that sucks. And I know a lot of, uh, bisexual men have struggled to come out because of that. Mm-hmm. And that just bummed me out. Mm-hmm. So, I love this. I'm excited to have you guys here. And before we go any further, I've gotta know, first off, you guys are lifestyle.

2:57 How long have you been in the lifestyle and how did y'all even get into the lifestyle? Yeah. Do you wanna kick it off or do you wanna kick it off what you started? So I feel like you should walk us through. Yeah. So we are, we're, we're much newer to the lifestyle. Uh, we've only been in the lifestyle a little bit over two years, um, officially, and how we got started in it is an interesting story. My idea, of course. Um, but there's a little bit of a backstory to it. So when Rob and I first started dating, he came out to me in the beginning. Um, yeah, there was a big reason for that too.

3:40 I am Rob's second wife and his first marriage, um, ended over his sexuality. Okay. And so he knew in his heart that the next time that he is in a committed relationship, he's gonna be out. To his partner and be who he is. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Great. Beautiful. Yeah, like you can't keep living like you, you gotta be you, you gotta live your truth, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then he met me, um, totally just worked out because of her background. Yeah.

4:21 And coming from a household with two moms, uh, gay family members. Oh. Like kind of the AlleyOOP, right. Like, it was like, this is gonna be easy. I don't have to worry about anything. But, uh, yeah, there's not gonna be any judgment here. Yeah. No. Uh, absolutely amazing and lucky to have that opportunity with Ashley to open up to be me. And from day one, like no judgment, just, okay, cool. And I think that. Him coming out and us being able to, to talk about it openly and actually start talking about different fantasies that involved male bisexuality.

5:04 Um, we probably would've joined the lifestyle a lot sooner in the beginning of our relationship, but we got pregnant. Oh yeah. Damn kids that does that. That does that. Yeah. Um, so instead of, um, you know, kind of walking that path because we had a really, really fun fiery sort of bedroom life if, if you will. Um, so we probably would've quickly been on that path after I had, uh, our daughter. Um, I struggled with postpartum but didn't know it. So, and this is strange, we went from a almost seven year dry spell in the bedroom.

5:44 Oh, wow. Whoa. Yeah, so I, I really struggle to be like, dry spell doesn't mean like, it wasn't happening, it was just kind of once a month. Yeah. Okay. Check the box. It wasn't like we weren't intimate or romantic. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't the norm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so it got to a point where I realized I had to do some, you know, work on myself and get the help I need and every, every step of the way. During that portion of the, the journey, Rob was completely unwavering. He knew something was off, knew something was wrong, but knew what we had.

6:27 Was such a beautiful thing. So his dedication to me, to our family, you know, um, having a, a child, a you, you guys have. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I mean, when you find your person, you don't give up. Exactly. Right? Yeah. I'll say that. Yeah. Keep going. You figure out. Yeah. And that, that in itself is, could not be more opposite of one of the biggest stigmas that's out there that all bisexual men, they cheat, they're on their way to being gay, they're gonna leave you because I, I struggled. How, how did our journey start though? Like, that was, so the question, how did we get into swinging? So when I got, well, if you will, yeah.

7:10 My body woke up. Okay. And it was like the, the clouds parted in the sky and I turned to Rob, uh, right here, and I said to him. Hey, so I heard about this place, I think it's called Hedo or something. Have you ever heard about that? Like it was like a testing the waters kind of thing, and as a husband that you have a little bit of nod of these things, you know, when to just shut up and just smile head, like, tell me about it. What have, uh, what have we got going on? Yeah, for sure. And he, and again, listened to everything that I had to say and underneath it all for me, this was the start of me reaching out to him.

8:00 'cause I knew that it was gonna be important or good for us for him to explore his bisexuality. Right on. You know, I knew that that was something that was there. That was something that we talked about before. Right. And I know in my heart that no matter how dedicated that he is to me, or amazing father, amazing husband, um. He has those urges and if I wanted to stay monogamous, yeah, he absolutely would. That'd be no problem. But side note, this conversation started with, have you heard of Hedo Turn into, what do you think if we add a woman to the bedroom and as a man, it's like, no, stop, don't but twist.

8:45 My arm, she hasn't admitted to this day, has not almost, I've been admit, fully admitted, but knowing my sexuality and that it's not gonna disappear. So as soon as she said, what do you think if we add a woman? I was chomping at the bit of like, that's awesome. What if we were to add a man? Yeah, I was kind of waiting for that. So I think, I think she was, I think she baited me. It's okay. It worked out for. Yeah, it really did. But that was, I think, the introductory to the thought process. And then it was, how the hell do you find people? Yeah. You know, when you live in these small towns, like where do you start looking? How do you start interacting?

9:26 And that's that, that was just as long process trying to figure that out. Yeah, it, I think it took us several years to find our footing, but now I gotta know, did y'all go to Hedo? We did not. I never, it's expensive, man. That's right. You know, we'll all go one day. I'm so down. So we have not yet done any events, house parties, takeovers or anything like that. And I think there is probably a small portion of it that has to do with, there's not a lot. There's not a lot of bi male parties. I don't, how do I, I'm not, I'm not leaving my words right.

10:07 No, no. There, there, no, I, it's very hard to, um, we've been in the lifestyle for 14 years, but not, we've been recently in this area where we're at. Right. So it's it's a big community, but it's such a large community are still very afraid to come out. They're still afraid to come out. Yeah. And I get it. I was raised in a household where I couldn't even come out. Like my parents told me, if you ever come out as, as gay, you're out of this house. If you ever date outside of your race, you're out of this house. Yes. Like that's how it That's how it was. Yeah. They've got, as they gotten, as they got older, they understood and became a little bit more accepting.

10:52 But I still hadn't come out. I didn't come out to my first husband. I didn't come out to my second husband. I came out to him and that was in my thirties. I knew that I was within a month that we were dating. Yeah. I knew that I was, I could have been complete, like with women from the beginning had I been, you know, accepted had I been told it was okay. Um, and so, but here, but then I wouldn't be here. Yeah. Then he wouldn't be here and my kids wouldn't be here. Right. That's a great story of you, that your person and like I did. Oh, for sure. There's something about this relationship that like, you knew this is where I'm meant to be and that's beautiful. Yeah. And when we got into the lifestyle, I had already been in it before I got him in it and I was like, I just wanna be with girls.

11:35 Like that's just my thing. Like, I love men, but I already have you. I just wanna be with girls. That's pretty much how it started, but yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, you know, the guys come along every now and then. Obviously I wanted to have experiences. Mm-hmm. But at the same time too, I wanted her to have her experiences because she had never really been able to openly explore that before me. Yeah. Uh, and then we became poly for about five years because I wanted her to see what it was like to be in a relationship with another woman because she, she needed to see what that was like. And now she knows it's not for her. Sex part is fine, friendship is fine, but yeah. No, not relationships. So yeah, romantic relationships. She, I, I'm the same way.

12:16 I, I had, I've had, um, two relationships with women in the past, and I'm like, I don't, I don't, I'm not sure that I would go back to that. Yeah. You know? No, it wasn't, it was okay. It's really, but I, I still love women. The friendship, the sex. Exactly. Yeah. You know, so I'm. They're with you. Yeah, me too. You guys are pretty cool. So y'all are in a small, a small town, and so there's not a lot of bisexual men. How are y'all going about even trying to fulfill your fantasies? Like, is is it, is it that hard? So I, I am, so one of the things you said is small town, there's not a lot of bisexual men. Okay.

12:56 That's not correct. Right. Okay. There's, I'll tell you one thing that we have found is bisexual men are not rare. Okay. It's the acceptance that's, I mean, they are everywhere. So finding them, you know, the whole come out, come out wherever you are. Yeah. Um, we find that they come to us. Okay. Yeah. So because we are listed as fully bisexual on our profiles mm-hmm. And they're using those filters. To find buy males. Right. And they're all listed as straight. So we, when we very first started, we were listed as bi for a day fully, both of us bi, um, saw our neighbors on there.

13:41 I almost threw the phone across the room. I didn't know what to do. I was changing, I was gonna start crying. Like I, I was so new to it. Yeah. But it probably would've been different had it been you listed as bi me listed as straight. So, yeah. What we did, because nobody would've cared, is we flipped it to him being straight just in case. Right. What everyone else is doing. Right. And then we, it was like a week later, we looked at each other and we're like. If we're gonna do this amazing, huge thing in this sex positive space and be who we are and grow as people and learn about your sexuality and your desires, and act on things that are just fantasy, but will be reality.

14:22 We're gonna freaking put ourselves out there. Yeah. Get your free flag out. Yes. We flipped back to buy and that inbox it was Oh, kidding. Yeah. We blocked them first. We blocked your neighbors. That's Adam's fantasy that he, we have a neighbor that we could swap with every Oh my gosh. Yeah, dude, we're not new. That'd be incredible. That'd be amazing. Truly beautiful couple too. Like, just gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. Like, she was, like, when we first met him, she was like, whatcha doing? I was like, well, I wanna look through the picture. She's like, no, stop. He was like looking, and I was, and I was thinking it was almost, I wanna know, I really, I, it felt like they were, they could look inside of our windows at that moment and that every second matter.

15:05 And he's like, no, I wanna read the description. Did you? And I'm like, he did, he read it and everything. What you gonna do? I didn't even look. You gotta, yeah. I love that. Well, you know, so I, I have always been so I'm, I'm straight. I, and I've always heard about, uh, from different people that have come and talked to us throughout the years that. Bisexual men, it's, it's hard for them to come out. Most of them are married. Most of them are saying that they're straight. Um, several of them, uh, I, I know have trouble whenever they meet other couples. Mm-hmm. Uh, because there's couples that they find out the, the man is bisexual and they're like, oh no, 'cause he's gonna want to have sex with me.

15:51 No, no, no. I'm straight and maybe we shouldn't do this. You know, that, that sort of thing. I've seen it so many times before. Mm-hmm. Um, there's kind of a, an old school pigheadedness that that's still around that I really feel like we need to bring awareness to. Now, you guys had mentioned that there's not a whole lot of events. I see a lot of people yearning for this. There, there's a big want here for almost like a group or, or some way of connecting people in a community sense, because everybody's been so discreet. For so long. Uh, so when y'all came out with your podcast, I've, I've been passing that out to a lot of the people that I talk to out here because, uh, you know, it's important to have somebody that has resources and can establish a community.

16:42 You know, if, if you can't get accepted at, at certain tables, then you just gotta start your own table and say, okay, come on over here guys. You know what I mean? And that's what you guys are doing. And I think that's so frigging cool. And so that's why we, we had to have this, we had to have this discussion. Yes, for sure. So on the, the topic of the events and us trying to, one of the things we really are trying to do, like you said, is create that, that community and bring resources and find where these events and things are. So I have had conversations with folks in a couple of different states that do host these, um, buy events where you have to be. The male has to be either bi or gay, and the woman must be bi friendly.

17:27 She doesn't have to be bi. Um, but you have to be aware that, but there are no straight men allowed in these event spaces. Um, so I am currently working on learning a little bit more about them and, you know, hopefully we can get them going on the, the podcast and get some links and stuff to some of those events. So they do exist. So I don't want people to think that they aren't out there. So, like you said, they're, they're just few and far between. Yes, yes. Um, but, but they exist and we wanna try to make sure that people know where they are, where they can find them, how they can join those, those different groups. And some of them have their own platforms and in addition to that, other resources, that is a big thing for us because, like you said, there's so many stigmas out there against bi men.

18:18 They don't come out. And there's two, two really big reasons for it when you're in a straight presenting relationship, right? So like Rob is married to Maine, we have our wedding rings, we have our, our home and our child. If we don't say it out loud, you can't see it. Bi visibility oftentimes is not a visible thing. It's auditory. So unless you are putting the word out there, unless you're, you're, you're saying it. And it's really funny, a lot of the, the people that have reached out to us have started to talk about little things that they do to show even that they're married, that they are bi. So, um, shoelaces, nail polish, la lanyards.

19:04 Yeah. Key chain things. Key chain. Just like little things, um, that help them feel a little bit more them. Um. And on the note of resources, there are support websites and organizations out there that are available, not just for bi men, but also for their partners. So in addition to bringing that to light and letting people know where they can find those, we wanna also create that for people. 'cause once you feel safe, once you feel heard, and you know that the person that's listening to you feels the same way you do, you feel less alone.

19:45 Yeah. And you can be more of who you are. And it's, that's big for us. Yeah, that's, that's, I know there, there's so much, because like, I'm trying to remember what he said because, oh, you don't have to remember. It's okay. No, it's fine. And it's the first time we've done this and it's amazing to hear that, you know, other people are listening and rec and like to hear that you're. You're sharing our stories with people that you come across like so huge. Thank you. Thank you, first of all. And like Simon, like that's so cool that like we're sitting at our dining room table after a kid goes to bed and making some sort of impact is so cool.

20:26 Yeah. But I think kind of where I want to dip into is that I think the questions kind of along the lines of um, like bi events and bi spaces, what I've noticed through my years. 'cause I am 40 or 41, depending on, um, I've been on this journey for a while and trying to figure it out and trying to figure out who I am, what I like, and what's okay, what I'm okay with, and all these different things that come to the point where I'm at. There's so many people like me. There's so many, like I feel like the people I connect with best. Are only available Monday through Friday from 9:00 AM to 2:00 PM when their wifes aren't around and they don't know, oh man, that community is huge.

21:11 It's like your best friend next door, the guy at the grocery store. Like it is so many people that like when you start connecting the dots, it's like you realize you know this person, you know the same people. And it's, I think that's part of what we are trying to figure out and help unlock is like, let's stop the bs. Let's stop being afraid. And when you're able to be you, life can be so much better. It's so much easier, you know? Totally. What kind of feedback have y'all gotten from y'all, from your podcast? Because I mean, it's a very unique situation. It's, for us, it's not unique, but for others it is right to have a podcast. That's a Bible. I wanna jump in first.

21:52 Oh, you can see her winding up. My, my fear has been, and again, it's a lot of this has been so therapeutic. 'cause other than Ashley, I haven't talked openly to a ton of people about the journey and how I feel and what I'm into and all these things. Mm-hmm. Knock on wood, it's been amazing and positive feedback. I'm, I think we're both so worried about what if we say the wrong thing and what if we trigger somebody and what if they come after us? And everybody has been so great so far. Yeah. So the, the feedback has, we have had people make us laugh. We've had people make us cry. You know, we've had people just literally move my soul to dance.

22:36 Like, I can't even tell you. They have so many people have come out and said thank you, and how grateful that they are, that someone is, you know, speaking on this, you know, bisexual men in the lifestyle. And not just that there's been, there's been some men that have said, Hey, you know, I listen to your podcast, you know, every time. And at some point, you know, this might be the podcast that I used to start talking to my wife. Yeah. You know, people have asked advice, you know, about, there's been men that have shared their stories and we've had so many journey stories. We've had women wives reach out that like, we found you guys and me, you know, me and my husband, we listened to you and like.

23:18 It's so cool to hear people talk about, like, we found your podcast and this is what it means to us. And like, we're cooking dinner and listening to it in the kitchen and it's awesome. Yeah, and it's, I think that the, I think the journey stories hit me the most. Mm-hmm. Um, because I, I think about Rob's journey story and what he went through. Right. And when your, when your husband hurts. When your partner hurts, you hurt. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and those people that are recognizes recognizing that even though I'm out to my wife or my husband is out to me, this journey is not over. Because once they come out, they may have never had an experience with a man, yet they've only thought about it.

24:03 They know that they have that desire, and so they're working with their, their partner to try to achieve that or find out what that is like. Um. That's a whole other part of the journey. And it can be emotional, it can be raw, it can be beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Sorry, I had to take a time out because I'm watching them. When we go out with people and we meet people for the first time, something that like draws us in is watching the chemistry of other people. So I just watch you reach out and grab his hand and I love it. Yeah, I love it. This us. Like we're always on on each other. We're constantly touching each other. I don't even realize, like sometimes Yeah, she'll kick your leg up while we're doing a show.

24:44 And I don't mean the put on the smile, but it's beautiful. Like when we go out with people, it's like, that's who we tend to feel we connect with. Same. Yeah. If you're with a couple and like, they're not even near each other, you are like, how do we include them? Or how do we, oh man. Yeah. So when you watch people just connect naturally, I just watch you reach over and hold his hand. I'm like, that's so cool. And did you fall in love with it? I, I appreciate it. And I'm like, I'm a mush. I'm like, I'm the emotional one. She's the hardass. Yeah. I'm the one like, I'm like, oh my God, look at that. Like that's. That's what you wanna be in life like. It's beautiful. And you know what's funny is it's the same thing with me. I'm, I'm the mushy one and she's the hard ass. Yeah. So I, I love, love, you know, and I That's awesome.

25:25 And I love seeing that sort of thing. And, and she's more the cynic. I am, I am, we're balanced because of it. We are a good, yeah. Because I will run away and she keeps me. It goes so cute. That is how it goes. I wanna make one, just one more point on the, um, people reaching out. Yeah. Um, there was one woman that had reached out to us and said that she was thinking about starting a podcast similar to this. They were brand new on their journey, and her husband had come out to her and, you know, she let, she let us know where they were at with their journey brand, brand new. And they were looking for this podcast and they couldn't find it. And they were like, well, let's, let's make one.

26:06 And then our podcast came out and we wrote, we wrote them back. We wrote her back and said. Girl, if that podcast is in your head and in your heart, jump in with us. We need you here. You know, and everyone out there, if you're, you know, thinking about, um, a podcast that has anything to do with the bisexual male journey or, you know, you and your, your partnership, it doesn't have to be about swinging, it doesn't have to be about the lifestyle. Let's get those voices out there, because again, yeah. It's the conversation started. Yes. Yeah. When it comes to bi men, it's not just normalize, it just, yeah. Stop the silliness bi visibility again, in most cases is auditory. So put your voices out there.

26:47 Yeah, for sure. I love that. That's a really good point. No, that's a really good point. I mean, it's, uh, we have friends that. Won't even, you know, most of our friends are in the lifestyle, but we have friends in the lifestyle that are just, they other lifestylers don't even know Yeah. That they are bi and it's a sub-community. Yeah. In inside a, a bigger community. Mm-hmm. Both are very discreet, one more discreet than the other. And I've heard a lot of women express interest in finding bisexual males. Mm-hmm. And they're like, I don't know where to find them. And we need more groups and we need, we need to be able to find, because there's a lot of women there is that, and, and a lot of couples, I should say, that that is their, that's their milieu.

27:35 That's what they dig, you know? Yeah. Like, that's, that's, that's their primary dynamic. And it's not brought to the forefront that often because people don't feel comfortable oftentimes talking about it. And at this point, it's. You, you're one, you're, if you're a swinger, you should be getting used to having uncomfortable conversations. Mm-hmm. Just period. Mm-hmm. You know, no matter what. Um, and, and I mean, no matter what, if, if you're gonna be entertaining the thought of having sex with somebody else while you're with, in a relationship with somebody else, uncomfortable conversations are gonna be had. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if you can't have those uncomfortable conversations, you ought not be in that lifestyle.

28:18 And then that opens up the bigger uncomfortable conversation of, I think I might be into this. Yeah. And it's not anything we've ever talked about. Okay. Let's talk about it. You know, let's, let's explore that. And that's why it blows my mind that there's still judgment in the lifestyle towards other sub dynamics. Mm-hmm. Uh, such as this, because. Uh, there's, there's a lot of machismo ness. No matter where you go, you're gonna run into it. Everybody thumps their chest. Yeah. Um, but I really am a big believer in 100% inclusivity. And in this community there's a pot for every lid.

29:03 There's a spot for everybody. Mm-hmm. There's a chair at our table, that's for sure. That's, and so, yeah. I, I had to, I I, I was drawn into y'all's podcast. I was drawn into y'all's, um, content that was created. Mm-hmm. And it really felt like y'all were starting up something that was happening at a pivotal moment right now where the conversations are being had, they're just starting to be had, they're just starting to be normalized a little bit, which blows my mind. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, it's like really, you, you're still not accepting of, of everybody in our like. The world is changing.

29:43 People like we get bored. It's long at this day and age and where we are and yeah, it's like women are, it's why is it okay for women to be bisexual? Why isn't it okay for the male to be bisexual? Like, why is it such a, a, a thing for people that it's like, man, grow up that like, you know, I don't know, there's so many wins that we want to get, but Yeah. You know, we come across profiles where it's, you know, if the mail is bi, don't contact us. Yes. Whatever. Yeah. If that's your mindset, I don't want to contact you. Exactly. You know, like, you're not our kind of people already. But then like, you know, we've had a couple great opportunities. We're like, because we're bi doesn't mean we have to play bi.

30:26 Like, there's times we'll play straight and it's fine. Yeah. And it's not a big deal and everybody has a good time and mm-hmm. You know, like. Because I'm bi and the other guy might not be bi. Like it's all above vibe. We're all gonna be naked. Yeah, it's fine. Like everybody, like consent is still, is still a thing. It doesn't matter. Yeah, of course. Consent boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter what your sexuality is. And that's one thing that people start to, it's almost like they think it's a little bit blurry. Like, oh, if he's bisexual, you know, he's going to to come after me. Um, and on that point, we had a, a recent episode where Rob, I was asking Rob what his type was and I was actually trying to pull it out of him.

31:08 What is he, God tell you, you know, Adam does that to me all the time. Yeah. And I was like so ambiguous about it. And he made a point on that episode where he said, I can't be into a man unless I know. He's into men. Yeah. Yeah. And we had people, we had other men reach out to us and say, I'm the same way. I'm the same way. I'm the same way. I have to know that that person has a profile that he is bisexual or that he has actually stated that before my brain will even flip. And it made me start thinking straight guys. Like, if you're just straight, there are so many bisexual men that won't even, you are just invisible. Exactly.

31:49 Like, so stop flattering yourself. And there's, and they're so full of that, oh, well, so you're bi. Oh, you must want to fuck me. And it's like, Hmm, dude, that doesn't mean that, I mean, women get it too, right? Because I am very selective. Like I'm not gonna. Am I going to go down on every single woman that I see? It's just like I am, I'm selective. It's, I'm not a selective No, I'm, I'm very, I'm very selective. Like it is what it is. I don't like everybody. And, and it's like, I, like everybody. Everybody's my friend. I love everybody that if a woman, if a woman is tells me that they are bi situational, they're, I'm not playing with them.

32:29 Because that means they need alcohol. Yeah. They need alcohol. And I always make this joke. I'm like, well, I am always the situation and I don't wanna be the, I don't wanna be your first person. Like, that's not gonna happen. That's not gonna feel good to me. So it's like, nah, nah, you wanna feel desired. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Of course. You know, I will say I, and I'm, I'm bummed here. Okay. Because I'm the only one who doesn't get to say that I'm bisexual out of the form of us. Yes. I feel like I'm not a part of the club, but you guys are very inviting. I appreciate that. I, I will be very honest with you. I, I am. Uh, I love everybody and I treat all of my friends the same women men. I, I treat everybody the same. I'm very affectionate. I'm very loving towards my people.

33:11 Um, and I have had some really amazing, really good looking men. Yes. Uh, come on to me and ask me out. And I feel so horrible when that happens because I'm like, dude, if I could be bi right now, I would so take you up on that. Like, we would go, I be dudes. You'd be mine, but yeah, exactly. Because I loved, uh, my kink is I like to feel wanted. Yes. You know what I mean? Like I had, I had a childhood where I never felt wanted. Yeah. So now I'm older and I'm experiencing that feeling of, of being wanted and it's so flattering and it's so wonderful and I love every bit of it. Um, but, and you know, I'm, I'm, I'm always like, I'm so apologetic.

33:53 I'm like, I'm so sorry. I wish I could, like, I wanna be there with you and I'm so jealous. 'cause right now the cheese stands alone, but you know what? I love all you guys, so it's all good. But they become really good. You become an ally. There. We, there you go. An amazing mindset, you know, to just love is love and you know, even if it's not for you to welcome it and accept it and be friends and like, you know, even what we're doing right now to like, help shed light on something that it's not for you, but you want to help and that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've met a lot of people that struggle and, and you know, I just think that sometimes people need the right resources. Yes. You know? Mm-hmm.

34:34 Yeah. Especially in this, in this day and age. Oh yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that struggle can be so, so terrifying. Um, and Pris, you had made, uh, a comment about. It being okay for, for women or, I don't remember exactly what the comment was, but yeah. Something popped into my mind at, at that point, and it was about women in the lifestyle community. You know what it was? We were talking about the profiles. We have seen profiles that specifically say, not just if you're, if you have a bi male, don't reach out. If you have a bi male, the lady is not interested. And yes, I'm gonna, I'm gonna speak a little bit to that.

35:15 Um, I'll, I'll never forget, I was kind of cruising this forum that was for women, for Mothers for Moms. And it's, uh, it's a spicy forum where we're all moms and we're busy and we don't need, it is an after dark, moms after dark. It's like a group like that and the group that we wanna be in, but we're not allowed in. Oh man. Okay. So, and when, and this is, it's happened on more than one occasion, uh, a woman will go in there and she'll express that her husband came out to her or that he's interested in pegging or some type of bedroom play like that.

36:01 And Pris, like, let me tell you, is a woman, a woman? Like you think that these women are in there straightening each other's crown and all that, lifting each other up? Nope. Tore these women down and the level of heartbreak that I experienced mm-hmm. Seeing that, that these women were saying, uh, oh girl, you know what that means? That means that he's gay. He's on his way to being gay. So these women are ex in a, a really fragile, almost emotional time to. They are looking for a place to be anonymous and speak about this experience and look for support.

36:41 So the first place they think of to go for support is other women. Yeah. And there should be two rules. One, when you're sick, don't Google your symptoms. And two, when you're stuck in your fuels, don't go it, don't go into a social media moms group. No. Right. Don't do it. Don't do it. No. Um, and it, it breaks, it breaks my heart that this isn't, that, that it's not the place that you can go because it, it should be. Mm-hmm. Because when it came to, you know, like the, the civil rights of, you know, when gays were trying to get their rights and, and they were doing their marches and they were, they were coming out and they were doing all that when it came to gay men mm-hmm.

37:25 Women were their first support. We were their best friend. We were their only friend. We became their mother, their sister, we marched beside them. You know, we held their hands. We talked about boys. Mm-hmm. With them. Yep. You know, we were their love, we were their anchor, you know, women artists and celebrities. What they did for the AIDS crisis and the movement. Mm-hmm. You know, it was women, it was us. Mm-hmm. And to go into this group where, you know, a woman is saying that my, my husband is expressing a different sexuality, or he is, you know, wanting to have this different type of sexual experience mm-hmm.

38:06 And to be torn down by other women. Yeah. Like, I, it doesn't surprise me, which is horrible. It doesn't surprise me, but it is horrible. It's a, it's a very pigheaded, I don't know, you live in a box under a rock type of situation. I'm educated. That's the difference. I totally agree. Ignorance. It's, it's, um. It's definitely alive and it's definitely still there. I mean, like I said, my family was 100% pigheaded and that's because we had family that were, you know, I have a, a cousin who totally did a body transformation. She is now a male, you know, she's been with her partner for like 30 years.

38:47 Yeah, I have two cousins. One, they were both gay. They both got aids. And so of course that stigma stays and it stays and it follows generations and it follows generations. And I'm not gonna lie to you, I had a very horrible stigma about bisexual men for many years. And then something in my head was just like, what the fuck? Like, why do I even. Well, I would hate for someone to look at me that way, the way my family did. Why am I even like thinking like this? It was around the time you came out because Yeah. And it took a lot of, I, uh, you know, I'm, I'm a very positive person and, uh, and, and I'm one of those where I just, I don't really care what, you know, what your preferences are Yeah.

39:31 Or anything like that. I just see the person, you know, and, uh, I, it would bug me when she would express these, these judgmental things because I was that person that was like, and I'm like, you know what? Let's have a conversation about this and let's talk about it, and, and let's get down to the brass tacks as to why you have these thoughts. Because a lot, nobody's born with these thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, this, we're all born as a blank canvas. It's the thoughts that are instilled in us, either when we're growing up or what environment we're in or whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's where those things creep in. And when you can pinpoint it, you can go all the way, way back to it and go, oh, that's why I think that. Yeah. And then you can go, oh.

40:11 You look at where you got it from and go, oh, well those guys, they fucking suck. Oh my God, why would I, even, my parents were entertain fucking idiots. Like, oh my, like, seriously, like, I literally looked at him and I was like, oh my God. Yeah. That is so ignorant. And just, and really, for us, my, my main argument was we have, we have children. Yeah. And they come out to us, are you going to be pigheaded about it? Are you going to act this way towards them? And it's like, well, no, those are our kids. Well, these people are somebody's kids. Yeah. Yeah. And they're people, like, there's not, you know what I mean? Like, it, it, it just, it was one of those things, and these are the conversations that need to be had because not a lot of people think that way.

40:58 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the moment that you kind of personalize it, and you put a face to it and you put a name to it, all of a sudden it's very real. And it's like, oh. Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah. That is such an amazing, amazing, and inspiring point, you know, because the things that you have learned that aren't true, they aren't right, and that they're hurtful. They can be unlearned. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and that is the whole, you know, bring out those podcasts. You know, let's, let's listen, let's, let's go to events, let's create events. Let's create spaces and times that we can talk to, talk about it, and help people to unlearn that, you know, spaces for women.

41:38 Just, you know, the, the partners, you know, I, I say women, but when I, I try to use the word partner because, you know, there are gay men, you know, that are in relationships with bi men, and the struggle is, is exactly the same. It's no different. You know, whether you're, you're bi. Oh yeah. Is it that hard? I didn't think about that. What's that? I didn't think about that. Yeah, I didn't think about two men that are in a relationship and maybe one is bi first. Well, it's funny, didn't, because we did a show, uh, in Chicago with my, my high school friend. Oh, Jeremy. And he is, is full on gay and he was in a relationship. No, no, no. That's what I was waiting for. That's sounds, I was like, was that it?

42:19 Is it time? I was like, I wish. Looking like it's coming. Yeah. I saw your face and I was looking at the clock and I was like, is it coming? Is it, is it happening? But this is the last one, and then it's done for the night. That's all right. This clock. So freaking Michael. I feel like this clock is gonna be, um, this sound is gonna be part of our daughter daughter's core memory. That's, yeah. They're gonna have it for the rest of their lives. Yeah. Like, she's literally gonna have the, she's gonna be a one day and she's gonna be like, that was your great grandfather's clock. When you're a kid, you look for the things that made you feel comfortable and safe in your, your home, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So wait, sorry. It's very inconvenient right now. No, no, no. It's okay.

42:59 I'm trying to remember what I was saying. Jeremy and, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Women. That's right. So any, so, yeah. Jeremy is, is, is 100% gay. Yeah. And he realized in the show that he is performing a sort of non-monogamy because he's dating, uh, a married man, uh, who's married to a, a woman. A woman, and, and he's dating another man who's involved in another relationship. So he is like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I didn't realize this until we had this conversation. Yeah. Uh, because he did not know that we were non-monogamous prior to that. It was like one of those episodes that it's like, Hey, I wonder what you would think about this. And, you know, that's when we talked about whether or not, you know, the two circles or the two societies.

43:45 Are are very involved in each other. Mm-hmm. You know, I know that there's people that have legs in both, but are they, you know, and so we discovered a lot from that conversation and I think that a lot can be discovered from having these kinds of conversations. Yes, absolutely. And, uh, you know, and I'm gonna throw this out here, uh, because it's worth saying 'cause our listeners cannot see you. Uh, we have, uh, their logo over, uh, where their faces would normally be. Yeah. Because they're, they're, they are discreet. Yes. Um, but I have to say this out loud. You guys are, you guys are a couple hotties. Yeah. I'm just saying. Thank you. Yeah. Y'all, y'all are, y'all are an attractive couple. So, you know, just, I, I just, for people who cannot see you, I just wanted to throw that out then.

44:28 Oh, now I'm gonna go back to being nervous again because I think you guys are so sexy. You were doing so good. Now you're going back to being nervous at you right over here for minute. But, you know, it is, it's tough. It's something that we wanna. Get to at some point to be just truly openly un unapologetically us. And there's just that little bit of like the nerves of like, well, what if like, you know, like with, with Jo, more so my job, it's legit. Yeah. It's, it's honestly mostly the, the job. Yeah. Right now it is. I wanna say a hundred percent, uh, the jobs, if we didn't have that, you know, and, and that sucks that you can't, like there apps that we have or I have that, like as soon as I see somebody that I work with, they're blocked immediately.

45:17 I don't even wanna start a conversation. I don't wanna give them the opportunity to maybe recognize me. Just like, because that's our livelihood. Let's just head it off with the past, you know? Yeah. And so it's unfortunate that, you know, we can't, because we know that the background of the companies, um, well maybe yours might change soon, but it's. Christian sort of Yeah. Owns, if you will, you know, and, but they're, yeah. I mean, they're big and, um, I understand. Yeah. I, I don't wanna call it like, like, like the, like what would I say? Like the wokeness, but they try, there's a lot of groups that they're trying to do, they try to get involved. Really? Yeah. Trying to be modernized.

45:57 Yeah. Yeah. Women's groups, uh, yeah. Everything. But, but when it comes to, but I think that when it comes to folks at a certain level mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, they're probably not going to want that. And they probably also don't want us to be linked to our podcast. Correct. Yeah. Because podcast is very real and very raw. So even if we do come to a point where we say, screw it, and we're wrapping ourselves in bi pride flags and showing up to work, we still won't link ourselves. To the, the podcast, you know? Yeah. We were not gonna, you know, hand out podcast cards at, at work. Um, I've been trying, I've been trying to convince Ashley to be my sugar mama for a while now.

46:42 There you go. Especially now. If you wanna be my sugar mama, then we don't have to worry about it. We could put our faces out and everything. It'll be fine. No, because if I have to work more, who's gonna edit the podcast? I learn shit. I'm, I'm Adam Sugar mama. He has to do all the podcast stuff. Yeah, I know. I was, I was laid off, uh, in August. In August, yeah. But I worked for a comp for a company that was initially ran and owned by Canadians. So it didn't matter what my sexual preference was or what I do or anything like that, they don't ask no questions. Uh, and so that was nice. But of course, if you really don't want to worry about that kind of, and having to be discreet, uh, I mean. It's one of those things where you kind of have to work for yourself if you're gonna, you know, be open because you're gonna deal with judgment no matter what anywhere.

47:28 Yeah. Uh, we came out initially, or she came out and then we came out as, as poll. Um, because we had a a, an accounting business at the time and we worked for ourselves. And it was like, what are we afraid of? Who cares? What's, who's gonna say what, what are we gonna lose? Some customers? Fuck them. You know? So did you guys find that one was, uh, like more challenging than the other, or one had more of an impact, like your sexuality versus being poly? So, I will say that coming out right. I, I wanna say that coming out as poly is, was was harder to explain to the kids and, and harder to explain to anybody. To explain to anybody.

48:08 Yeah. Because of our relationship. We're so close. Yeah. Yeah. And we were like, oh, he's gonna, and we even got, we got judgment from, from Swingers Yeah. When we came out as poly because they were like. Oh, you guys are gonna be divorced in like a year. Mm-hmm. There's no way you guys, you guys love each other too much. Y'all are all touchy feely. Like we're always on top of each other, like all the time. And so for us to say, yeah, we're gonna date separately and we're gonna date together and we're gonna kind of do this thing. And, and I had people reaching out to me and going, don't do it, man. Don't do it. And I was like, man, I'm not even worried about that. We're secure. Like this is not a thing. Yeah. But everybody is going to pretend or think that they know what's best for you.

48:49 And the only people that know who what's best for you are you? Yeah. And nobody else lives in your four walls. No. And you know what? Your house is your safe zone, but you carry that wherever you go. So you have to be safe inside yourself and you have to be happy inside yourself. And that's really hard if you're worrying about getting judgment from other people. And that sucks. You know what I mean? Like that's not fun. Um, so that's really where. You know, like we're, we're big onto, uh, you know, we, we respect everybody's discretion because what it comes down to, it is jobs. Uh, a lot of people don't really care what other people think. I think there's a lot of people that are like, Hey, you know, hit the bricks, you know?

49:29 Yeah. If you don't like what I do, but nobody wants to be judged at work and then have to lose, lose their livelihood on top of that. Yeah. Like, that's, that's frigging scary, man. Yeah. But you, we like the polyness or the swinging part. Is that what you were asking? Like which one was the better? Yeah. He hasn't podcast coming out as bi one was, and you talked about coming out as poly. I sound like which one was more difficult for you? Um, the, the poly. The poll, because I knew I was gonna get a lot of judgment from that. Um, but both of us were gonna get a lot because they were gonna be like, like he said, like, why, why would you do that and aren't you? I mean, of course we always get the aren't you jealous and he's gonna leave you?

50:09 Oh, you and oh, you guys are just looking for a, a way to cheat on each other. Yeah. Um, I, so that was, that was harder for me. That was, that was definitely, you would think that, you know, from the community, even people not in the community that are seeking to understand that the first things that they would say is, wow, that is a strong foundation. Like, I, or they would, how did you do that? Give me the secret, you know? Yeah. So it shocks me, and it sounds so similar, you know, to a coming out experience for, you know, bi guys, you know, some of the, the feedback that you got or some of that, that judgment is really, really, walks the same exact line, you know?

50:50 Um, people automatically know. How your journey ends. They know how your relationship ends. Yeah. You know, they're, they're doing you a favor by letting you know, spoiler alert, he's gonna leave you. You know? That's right. No, he, he gave me more of who he is. Mm-hmm. You know, and we have conversations that a lot of other couples, I mean, they, they could only pray to get to that, that level of openness when it comes to sharing each other's fantasies, sharing each other's desires. You know, without being judged. Yeah. Without being judged. Yeah. Yes.

51:30 And so when Rob came out to me early on, it was, it was almost like getting a gift. It was almost like getting more of him. Like, oh, I already have this amazing man, and he's awesome. You're getting more, yeah. I'm no kidding. I, me, I mean, like this sense of you, you're in it for the long run. Yeah. It really, but it really, it, um, it really unlocks another whole portion of who a person is once they trust you enough to share their sexuality, just like you, you did with Adam, you know, and now the, the conversations that open up along those lines, okay, you've just told me that you're bisexual or gay, or whatever it is.

52:12 Tell me about that. You know? Mm-hmm. And just that sentence, it unlocks waves of what your journey has been like, how you've, how you've been hurt from it, how you've had to hide the moments that you've embraced it, you know, the pieces of you that make you beautiful or the pieces of you that you're still hiding from yourself. And now you get to start this journey together to find the rest of you. We're still finding Oh yeah. People of him. Right. And, you know, not just sexuality, but like between the four of us. I think we can all think of a time, whether it's with current partners, past partners, whoever.

52:55 There's a time where you sat down probably in a dimly lit room in a car or something, right? And you are just letting everything about yourself out and you're having that deepest of deep conversations. And it's those moments where like the entire universe disappears. Like nothing exists outside of that conversation. And it's like the most powerful moment of connection that can happen, right? And then when you tie that into, if you are somebody that has a sexuality that's in hiding that you can't share, like being able to have that level of depth and conversation about something that's so, I don't know, sacred, whatever you want to call it.

53:41 Yeah. It's, it makes it like that much more powerful that like, I have found this person, I can have this conversation. And like, you wanna live in that moment forever. Yeah. Yeah. That level of, of trust. And one, one thing that I think is important to say too is we are on a swingers podcast. We are all swingers, we're in the lifestyle. And I, I just wanna make it clear that when it comes to mixed orientation relationships, so whether you're straight with someone who's come out to you as gay or bisexual, or you're a bisexual man with a bisexual woman, not every mixed orientation relationship has to. Go into ethical non-monogamy or into the swinging world or into the lifestyle.

54:25 I wanna make it absolutely clear that you can be monogamous or poly or ENM and in a mixed orientation relationship and thrive. Because when it comes down to the brass tacks of being able to thrive in that relationship, it's the communication. And that's where you're gonna find your journey or your path. And you, like you guys, you tried poly and said, yeah, we're not, we gave it a fair shake five years. Yeah. And you can turn back and you use that communication Yeah. Yeah. To, to reroute or try something new or, or different. And you're still, you still come out on the other side, you know, healthy and in a thriving relationship, that trust never leaves.

55:07 It's that journey doesn't have to end in only one, one way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the goal should always be to grow. Yes. To grow as a person, to grow in life, to grow as how, how we think, how we feel. Uh, you know, everything is, is learned and we, we learn from everybody that's around us. But really, if you just take the time to evaluate ourselves and just kind of go, okay, I, I gotta get better at this. Mm-hmm. I, I, I gotta, I gotta learn this better. And I think that, that most people, uh, are afraid to do that. Um, but luckily we have people like yourselves and, and us.

55:49 We are, we are all very open-minded, and we all like to talk and have those conversations. And, uh, you know, I gotta say, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and wrap this up because I'm gonna, I talk to you guys all night and, and I know it's gonna be problematic for all four of us. Uh, but, but I, I do want to say that I, I really. I love everything that you guys are about. I love y'all's personality. It, I mean, your love for each other shines through, which I think is incredible. . I, I'm really glad that we could have you guys on the show. And, uh, you know, I, I'm really glad that we can have this podcast to refer to others who may be struggling, who need somebody to talk to.

56:30 Uh, we like to be there for all of our listeners. You know, we, we are reachable by Messenger or email or whatever, however they can, uh, for whatever they need to. And you guys seem to really be open and, and genuine and you know, it easy to be vulnerable with Yes. Which, you know, I think. You provide a safe space for people, and I think that's a beautiful thing. And so, uh, Ashley and Rob, you two are doing incredible work and this conversation is exactly why we started Beyond monogamy in the first place, to keep creating space for real stories, real people, and real love. Uh, no matter what that looks like.

57:10 Yeah, it's a couple like you who remind everyone that bisexuality isn't a phase or a problem, it's just another part of who someone is. And the partner support exploration with honesty and empathy. That's all what we need. Like, that's what we thrive for. So it doesn't break a relationship, it deepens it. Yeah. Uh, if you want to keep up with Ashley and Rob, make sure to follow The United bi Swinging Podcast. Wherever you listen, wherever you stream those podcasts, wherever you find us, you'll find them as well. And they're on TikTok, so be sure and scope that out. Pretty much everything Ashley and Rob and United bi Swinging can be found on our show notes mm-hmm. Uh, as well as their, uh, guest profile on our website.

57:52 Yes. And while you're added, make sure you check out all the things beyond monogamy. At beyond-monogamy.com, you'll find all of our upcoming events. Our Beyond Monogamy, confessional, and the links to every platform we're on. Yes. You can also catch us every Thursday at 2:00 PM and 7:00 PM Central on full swap radio.com, alongside a ton of other sex positive shows that we love. If this conversation resonated with you, help us keep growing, like share, review the show wherever you listen. It's free. It takes a second, and it helps new people find these conversations that deserve to be heard. Exactly. We're building something real here. A judgment free community for open minds and open hearts and every review, every share, every listener who says, oh damn, I thought I was the only one.

58:39 That's how this movement keeps growing. Yeah. So thank you for being here. Yes. And uh, Ashley and Rob, thank you for being a part of this journey. Thank you, uh, to all of our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Yeah. And we will see you guys next week. Bye.